91 Operating a luxury vacation rental

[Richard Bexon]

Good afternoon, Oren. How are you doing?

[Oren Marciano]

Good, Richard. Good to see you.

[Richard Bexon]

Yeah, I really appreciate you making time in your day to jump on the podcast here and share some of your experience here in Costa Rica.

[Oren Marciano]

My pleasure.

[Richard Bexon]

Awesome. Oren, how long have you been in Costa Rica now?

[Oren Marciano]

I moved to Costa Rica in July 2006. So it's coming up on, what does that come out to?

[Richard Bexon]

16 years. Yeah. Wow.

Congratulations. Usually when you make it past two years here, and then you make it past five, then you're typically here for the rest of your life.

[Oren Marciano]

So yeah, yeah, I can see that.

[Richard Bexon]

Exactly. Exactly. Well, I mean, as you mentioned, you've been down in Costa Rica for 16 years, but I mean, what has really surprised you in the last six months, Oren?

And what trends do you think are here to stay?

[Oren Marciano]

I assume you're talking about in tourism, right?

[Richard Bexon]

I think it could be in anything really, Oren. I mean, if there's any trends that you're seeing, I mean, tourism related, or just in general, just for listeners to really get an idea of kind of your perspective of what you're seeing.

[Oren Marciano]

Sure. I would say maybe it's less of a surprise at this point because we kind of saw the trend coming late last year too, that this high season was going to be really excellent, but it was probably more positive than many people even expected or had hoped for considering where we were coming out of. And even looking back to historical performance prior to COVID, this high season for tourism for Costa Rica was excellent.

I would say it was quite encouraging to see that in spite of maybe a lack of overall government understanding for the tourism industry here, the industry itself came together. I think the ICT did what it could, as far as the government goes, to really keep Costa Rica on the top of mind of travelers around the world and position it well. And I think the whole industry really came together.

That was excellent to see and really kind of placed Costa Rica, it seems to me, as one of the top destinations worldwide after COVID, which I think for us has been excellent to be able to benefit from that excellent position. And I would say it is a well-earned position. I think Costa Rica does tourism very well and does many things very well.

So I think it all came together and it was quite positive coming out of the depths of the pandemic and tourism doldrums to see that all the work we've been doing together for the past 15 years, I've been here 16 years, has paid off. I felt it on a personal level with our business that we've worked hard over all these years, especially during COVID. As much as we were closed down, we never stopped working on preparation, marketing, strategy and everything.

So it was great to see that that seemed to have paid off. And then just in general, the work that the tourist industry has done in Costa Rica over so many years seems to have paid off. So that was really a very pleasant surprise.

[Richard Bexon]

I saw a report back the other day that Costa Rica is one of the most resilient destinations post-pandemic. And I think that that, I mean, I don't know about you, but I think that that might be here to stay. I mean, I don't know whether, you know, I did an analysis the other day for pre-pandemic and post-pandemic, you know, occupancy levels for some luxury properties.

And while maybe it won't stay at this screening rate, I think it's going to be better than what it was pre-pandemic.

[Oren Marciano]

Yes. I mean, if it stays at this rate, I think we're going to be all planning many new exciting things going forward. We're out of space is one way to look at it.

If the demand stays this high, we're going to have to all build up more capacity to take advantage of that. Even if it doesn't stay quite at this screening level, as you said, I also feel and certainly hope, but I feel like there's a good chance we'll stay at higher levels than pre-pandemic because I think Costa Rica really stood out and made it even more of a name for itself. And I think after the pandemic experience, people are looking for that outdoor, more natural experience in general when they travel.

And Costa Rica's great advantage being so close to the U.S. just makes it such an easy destination for the U.S. market. And I think the Europeans are starting to come back. And I think we'll respond well to that same, you know, positioning, that same feel that Costa Rica is an excellent, natural, outdoors, healthy destination.

[Richard Bexon]

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Well, I mean, Oren, I mean, what do you like about running a business here in Costa Rica?

Because you could run a business anywhere. I mean, what do you like about Costa Rica?

[Oren Marciano]

It's good to start with what you like, right?

[Richard Bexon]

Yes. We'll get to the challenges later.

[Oren Marciano]

I would say the best part about running a business in Costa Rica is getting to live in Costa Rica. Let's put it that way. We'll talk about the challenges next.

But Costa Rica is an excellent place to live. I think anyone, like you said, who's passed that two year, then especially that five-year mark has kind of called it home. And while there are certain things that are frustrating living here, you know, bureaucracy or just slow pace of movement in some areas, you know, things are a little bit more complicated.

It's hard to find things that you want. So you don't have Amazon Prime delivery or anything like that. The life in general in Costa Rica, to me, is just more, you feel like, you know, I don't want to be, I don't mind being cliché, let's put it that way, la pura vida, you know, you really feel that just lifestyle here.

And I think there's more of an appreciation for lifestyle and just the general attitude in Costa Rica is very different. I came, you know, grew up in New York City my entire life. New York City is a very dynamic, exciting, active place.

You won't get bored in New York if you're looking for that. But it's stressful. It's crowded.

It's expensive. It's noisy. And it's not so dirty.

But, you know, there's a lot of things. And even if you live outside of a big city in the U.S., I feel like, especially now, unfortunately, the, you know, the division in the society in the U.S. has gotten so, so strong that I don't know, living there, but looking at it from the outside, I said, wow, I don't want to be a part of that. You know, I don't want to be stuck in that craziness.

And just, it's enough just looking at it from afar. And, you know, and while Costa Rica has its own very small version of that a little bit, I was pleased to see, you know, after the recent presidential election here in Costa Rica, the losing candidate went to visit the winning candidate at his house and congratulated him and wished him best of luck. And they had a relatively, for Costa Rican standards, a kind of a negative campaign, which isn't generally the way things are done out here.

But, you know, unfortunately, it seems like that's a trend worldwide. In spite of that, the concession was very immediate, definitive, and positive in the sense that we're, you know, you get the feeling that even though he lost, he feels like we're in it together and wants the best for the country. And that's a huge difference from what, unfortunately, we're seeing in the U.S. and to some extent growing in other places.

[Richard Bexon]

Definitely, definitely.

[Oren Marciano]

One of, you know, just in general, Costa Rica is a great place to live if you value everything it has to offer. And if you have a, you know, a functioning business here and it allows you to live here, I think that's an excellent benefit.

[Richard Bexon]

What do you think of the challenges that people, well, challenges you've experienced, but also challenges that people could foresee when doing business here in Costa Rica?

[Oren Marciano]

I would divide it into different categories. I mean, there's certainly a steep, steep learning curve, I feel. I would think that anyone who shows up here used to doing business in a business friendly place like the U.S. would be surprised at how business friendly many of the processes are here and how frustrating and how counterintuitive it may seem. And now you hear it so many times, people say, oh, if they just understood how to do things better, everything would work so well in Costa Rica, you know, that if the government or the authorities in general, or just anybody, you know, even private businesses that you have to interact with, everything is a little bit different out here and the mindset is different out here. I think one of the hardest things for foreigners to adapt to is kind of the Costa Rican personality and understanding how to interact well with Costa Ricans in a business setting. Maybe in a personal setting, it's quite easy because Costa Ricans are so openly friendly that there it doesn't come off as difficult to interact and, you know, feel good about those interactions with locals.

But in a business sense, if you're coming, you know, New York is a good example. If you come from a high intensity business environment and you're people to react well to pressure or to, you know, in the worst case scenario, you see people, foreigners think, oh, I'll raise my voice to this person and then they'll get scared and that's going to help. You know, that's the exact opposite of how you would have to do things here.

And I think that for many foreigners, especially if they just move into a touristy area that's full of other foreigners and they kind of don't make the effort to really assimilate into the culture that I would imagine that they would find that to be quite difficult. Looking back at my own experience in my first four years, I studied at one of the universities in the capital and did a master's degree with, you know, a Latin, everything was Latin. It was a local degree.

And I spent those years purposely really even avoiding mixing too much with expats, with, you know, Americans and Europeans, just as a way to get as assimilated as possible. And that was part of the adventure for me. I was part of the draw in coming down here and studying and living in the society here was just to live as, you know, live as locally as I could and get to know the local culture as well as I could.

And I think that was a huge advantage for me by the time I started working in the family business about four years later, four years after moving here, just having gone through all of that. One of the top things I would recommend anyone who wants to come to business here is learn Spanish as hard as you think it might be. It's not that hard, but, you know, as much as you learn Spanish, the better you're going to have better time, you're going to have, you know, enjoyably and also business-wise.

So I don't think many people take that advice. I know many, many business people that barely speak Spanish here. I think that's one of the biggest faults.

That would be one of my top pieces of advice. And in general, I would say that it's really important to recognize you're living somewhere else and adapt yourself instead of expecting other people to adapt to you. So that's one of the challenges.

And then there's a lot of other challenges that are related to operational sort of things. You know, I dream sometimes about how easy it would be to just go on Amazon and look for supplies for the hotel and say, let me order a hundred of these, whatever I need and have it delivered to me two days later. Here you have to start out with where in the world can I even buy what I'm looking for and try to ask around.

It's almost a scavenger hunt to see what stores might sell what you're looking for. So once you find it, then you have to deal with the sticker price and realize how much more expensive it is. And then they, especially these days, one of the biggest challenges is the supply chain.

So, you know, as affected the U.S. as Costa Rica is only more affected, I imagine. So it's quite hard to get things. You know, we were looking to buy a vehicle, a little shuttle for the hotel to drive our guests around.

And we went to the dealer and he said, okay, I've got two in stock. And the next thing he remembers, I've got none left. So, you know, we'll hopefully get it in three months.

I know that's something that happens in the U.S., but I think that happened even before the pandemic here in Costa Rica was hard to get things. Yeah. And then, of course, the other part, I would say that is, you know, it's not terrible negative.

It's just part of accepting the reality of, you know, in small tourist towns, that the pool of potential talent is limited in a sense. And that's been one of the big challenges, too. When you want to look for more specialized workers to join the company, it presents a relatively big challenge because Costa Rica is a small country to begin with.

And then in the towns, in the rural towns that much of tourism happens in, the local population is even smaller. And, you know, for maybe obvious reasons, the educational opportunities and experiences is less in those small towns. And most of the people who are more ambitious will just move to the capital and try to start their lives where they have more opportunities.

So it definitely makes it a little bit harder to find already trained workers, let's say, people with higher levels of study or experience. But the flip side of that is that people in the rural areas especially are extremely nice and friendly. And I'd say that's really one of the biggest pluses that Costa Rica has as far as tourism is you don't need to teach people how to be nice and friendly to their guests.

That comes naturally to them. So in the rural areas, people, I would say, are maybe even more nice and friendly than you might find in the city, just because that's the nature of those areas.

[Richard Bexon]

I mean, in the city, they're pretty nice as well. They're just really nice out at the, you know, the more rural areas. So, you know, I mean, it's difficult sometimes, you know, with Costa Ricans, because it's kind of the good and the bad.

I mean, they're very relaxed, you know, but with that comes the passive aggressiveness, as you mentioned there. I mean, if you shouted at a Costa Rican, they're just going to crumble away, but you'll pay for it later. You know, whereas there's a dance that you need needs to be done before giving someone feedback or, you know, hitting something head on.

It's like in the Wolf of Wall Street, when they sit down in that Swiss bank, and he wants to get straight into business, and the Swiss bank is like, we do 10 minutes of small talk first, and then we talk business. I mean, you have to say, how are you? How's the family?

How was your weekend? You know, what have you got going on? And then you can kind of ease into it.

Right.

[Oren Marciano]

And then you have to be able to read the maybe subtle cues that they're sending back to you to see if they're following along. And they agree with where you are, because you can say anything to someone, and they'll be like, oh, yeah, no problem. And you turn around, and you never hear from them again.

So it's, you know, you got to take your time getting into the topic. Also, learn to read the cues and understand, okay, he's saying yes, but I could tell he really doesn't.

[Richard Bexon]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, emotional intelligence is very much needed here in Costa Rica.

[Oren Marciano]

Yeah.

[Richard Bexon]

So yeah. I mean, I always say to people, I'm like, there's no such word as yes, in Costa Rica, someone says yes, it means maybe if they say maybe it's no, but like, they'll never tell you no. And yes, never means yes.

[Oren Marciano]

That's exactly what I mean. Yeah. If someone tells you, oh, everything's gonna work out, you have to say, okay, maybe yes, maybe not.

You never really know. The longer you get here, it's a little bit easier to figure that stuff out, I would say. The longer you live in it, and you feel it and experience it.

But at first, I would say that would come as quite a challenge. And I experienced it myself. You know, even I would tell the story, when I first moved here, and I was studying in the university, and I moved to a little town outside of where the university was located in Heredia.

And I went to the local bike shop to, you know, buy some supplies for my bicycle. And the bike shop owner says, oh, meet Juan, or whatever his name was, who was hanging out there at the shop. He said, he lives in town, and he loves to ride his bike.

I said, oh, great. And he said, you guys should go out together. And Juan said, excellent.

Here's my number. Call me anytime, and we'll go for a ride. And I probably called him three or four times, and never heard back from him.

And then I finally understood.

[Richard Bexon]

I mean, just because we have the knives, and they can't say no. So yeah, yeah. Yeah, anyway, anyway.

But I mean, where do you see opportunity in Costa Rica?

[Oren Marciano]

In general, I mean, I think it amazes me that the demand for new destinations and tourism in Costa Rica seems almost unlimited, which is a positive thing overall. I think one of the things that makes Costa Rica an excellent destination for return visits is that there are so many places to visit. You're not going to go to the same resort every year.

You're going to go, well, hopefully they'll always come to Los Altos. But you don't need to go to the same beach every year or the same destination. There's so many places to visit in Costa Rica.

I think it's a huge incentive for people to come back again and again and explore other parts of the country. And it's something to me that you would think that eventually that demand would level off and that people would say, OK, there's enough out there. Now we know what we want to see.

But it's continuously growing. So I think for people who are looking for their little slice, there seems to be still a good amount of areas that can be opened up or grown in terms of the offerings there, which I would say is an opportunity in a sense. It seems like the demand is not slowing down.

So in general, visitors probably will continue to increase. And I think one of the things that I love most about tourism in Costa Rica is that there's quite a variety of types of lodgings and activities and for all levels and all interests. Not everyone is here to do zip lining.

There's rural tourism, which I think is community rural tourism. When you hear about it, it almost sounds a little bit like a pipe dream or just a fantasy that some academic has come up with. But in Costa Rica, it's real.

Even in our area in Caipos, there's some small towns a little bit off of the coast that you even see that now that there's people starting to bring tourists out there and the locals are ready and excited to receive them. And you can go eat a meal cooked on a wood fire stove, which is something delicious and unique and beautiful. You visit the person's house and they'll serve you a delicious meal right outside there, under their garage or whatever.

And that's a great experience. So I think there's that level of opportunity in the sense of there's always another place that can be offered to tourists to come and visit, which is great for someone looking to move down and try to do something themselves. And I think outside of tourism, Costa Rica is quite a well-prepared and dynamic country as well.

It's a very highly skilled workforce. My wife works for Hewlett Packard, which is an international company. She likes it, she enjoys it.

It's a great experience for her working for that US-based company here in Costa Rica. And that kind of area seems to be growing in general too. So I think there's a lot of opportunity for people who are not only looking to do things in tourism, but Costa Rica is a great place to start other types of businesses.

And just in general, I think there's a lot of potential here to be exploited in a sense.

[Richard Bexon]

I agree. I mean, there is that famous Costa Rican saying or Spanish saying, hay plata en el calle. There is money in the street.

You just need to figure out how to pick it up.

[Oren Marciano]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Richard Bexon]

Yeah.

[Oren Marciano]

I think so. I mean, I think in spite of maybe current political conflicts that you always hear about. And right now, like I said, this recent election wasn't overly conflicted, but certainly in different points of views and different personalities, et cetera.

But the overall environment in Costa Rica, I think remains to be quite positive for business and secure for the most part. I can say we've had, unfortunately, a couple legal situations that we've had to go through the courts to solve. But the positive thing is that I've found the courts to be extremely well, maybe slow to be very functional and I think fair in their results.

And then the people who are working in the courts seem quite well prepared and fair in their process. And you don't get the feel at all that there's corruption involved in those types of processes. You know, there's no feeling at all that other side is going to go pay off the judge or something.

You know, you don't even consider that really as a possibility here, which I can only imagine from, I mean, maybe I'm also judging it from the outside, but other Latin American countries, you would have that concern more. If you're a foreigner, you're going to be at a disadvantage because the locals always have their connections. Whereas here, as a foreigner who has been working here for over 10 years, you don't get that feeling.

You just got to know how to navigate things a little slow. Sometimes you got somebody who's not the most cooperative and you have to have some patience to get your paperwork moved forward, et cetera, but you don't get the feeling that you're stuck, you know, that you have to give bribes or that, you know, just in general, things are so dysfunctional, that it's not going to work. It's just, you have to have some patience, but things will be able to work out and generally the way you would expect.

[Richard Bexon]

I agree. I agree. Yeah.

I mean, it's, you know, in a friendly smile, you know, it goes a long way in Costa Rica as well. So, yeah. So, yeah.

[Oren Marciano]

Yeah. Once you adapt to that social, you know, way of interacting socially in the Costa Rican way, and you start doing it yourself, it really does help that people respond to that and they're more likely to want to work with you and help you out.

[Richard Bexon]

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I mean, if you had a time machine to go back 10 years and tell yourself something about your business, what would it be and why, Oren?

[Oren Marciano]

This, I would say, is something I could, you know, I can share that's not related to necessarily working in Costa Rica, but maybe to some extent, but it's just, I came at this business with no business background, much less a hotel or hospitality background at all. And one of the lessons that I've learned over the years is, you know, don't be scared to invest a little upfront and, you know, in well-qualified staff and even better quality materials when you're building or repairing things, you know, be a little bit more forward focused and a little bit more, call it confident that, you know what, I spend a little upfront, but I'm going to Early on, we were very, of course we had some financial difficulties early on in the business too, but I had the mentality of being very much a penny pincher. I said, Oh, if I can get this paint for half price or this fabric for half price, let me get it.

And then I realized two weeks later, Oh, this fabric is half price. Cause it's already wrinkled. That's, you know, and you know, there was a few, a few key hires that we made, but again, the company said, wow, I hired this person, you know, three or four years ago, I would have had the benefit of this, this human resource in the company earlier, we would have actually made more money in the shorter run, you know, while I was thinking, Oh, I can't afford to pay this high salary to this higher qualified worker. If you do it right, that worker should pay for itself more, you know, his, his presence.

Those are the kinds of things that I didn't really know at first, but as I started seeing the results and understanding it more, I said, you know what, now, the next time I looked at buying some products that I'm going to buy the right quality from the beginning, knowing that it's going to make my life easier going forward.

[Richard Bexon]

Well, I mean, you guys have done a great job with Los Altos, you know, I mean, and also, you know, a jungle Vista down there. I mean, I stayed there last week. Thank you very much again for that again.

And I mean, just, I'm always reminded when I go back there, I'm just like, wow. I mean, it's just such a great product that you guys have here.

[Oren Marciano]

Thank you very much. Yeah. That means a lot considering the experience you've had.

And I appreciate hearing that.

[Richard Bexon]

No, no. I mean, it's, you know, I don't say it lightly. I just, I really enjoyed staying there last week.

And, you know, I mean, it's a lot of hoteliers always ask for feedback and sometimes, you know, the improvements get made and sometimes they don't. And I remember months back, you asking for our feedback, we gave it back to you. And it's been nice to see that you kind of took that to heart, made those improvements.

And yeah, I mean, again, just I was amazed when I walked through the room in Jungle Vista, just how beautiful that room is just being in the jungle, like at the top of the canopy.

[Oren Marciano]

That's the idea. That's what we're looking to share with our visitors. And it's great to hear when it works out.

And it's great to hear that your vision plays out. And I can say, you know, here's another example, I think of the positive structure of the tourism community here in Costa Rica. There's a lot of support internally, you know, and I would say in our town in Manuel Antonio, you don't, you know, sometimes I feel like, oh, there's not enough unity, but in general, you get the feel that there's everyone's kind of in it together in tourism, you know, and especially this past couple of years, you really felt that when people came together.

But in the business in general, there's a lot of sharing of knowledge and advice. And like you said, you know, you guys have a lot to offer in terms of experience and what you've seen in other places. So it's great to know that the partners that you really built a relationship with are willing to help build you up as well.

And the type of feedback that, you know, for example, when you guys visited us six months ago, is the type of feedback we're looking for. So it's great to know that there's kind of that, if we all work together, we're all going to win together, we'll all benefit together. I think that really is the truth here in Costa Rica on the big scale.

And I think that's one of the reasons that Costa Rica has done so well. I traveled two, three years ago with my wife on our honeymoon to Chile and Argentina, which are amazing destinations. I think what you can see there is incredible.

And people give it their best, let's say. But I came back so sure that Costa Rica is so far ahead of the game than these other two countries that are, you know, traditionally, maybe more famous and certainly bigger than Costa Rica. And I said, wow, in Costa Rica, we know what we're doing, you just get the feel every, even when we check into a hotel, you know, and just in general, the feeling of being a tourist, instead of someone working in tourism, thinking to myself, wow, if we were doing this in Costa Rica, we would do it this way, you know, and I can see that Costa Rica is really far along.

And I think a lot of that is when I learned everything I know about tourism here in Costa Rica, mostly from Costa Rica, right? So I think Costa Rica has just given itself that, they call it that challenge, you know, and accepted that challenge and has done really well with it. And I didn't mention before, but my academic studies I did here were in conservation and wildlife and nature conservation.

And actually, the thesis that I did was how does ecotourism affect local populations attitudes towards wildlife and conservation, looking for a positive relation between ecotourism as economic activity, and people's changing attitudes. And I found it to be quite the case that really, in these two examples that I studied, ecotourism was a very positive factor in changing people's attitudes towards being more conservationists and valuing wildlife and nature even more. And I think it's just kind of a positive feedback loop in that sense, you know, that the more the more people see the economic benefits and social benefits as well, and the more they want to support it, and the more they act themselves in a way that's better for the environment and better for the tourists who come looking for a healthy environment.

So I think that overall has really been something extremely positive that I've picked up on and continue to benefit from myself.

[Richard Bexon]

Yeah, no, definitely, definitely. I mean, I think a lot of the people that are in tourism, never studied tourism, like it was never the intention, like, we just kind of fell into it, if that made sense. I mean, it's a great industry.

Because I always say to people, we get to see people at their best. And I mean that from the point of view of typically when people are on vacation, they're relaxed, they're not worried about much, like we get to see the best of them, you know, like their real selves, not their stressed work or at home running around, like it's chilled out, they're having fun with their family or with their partner or on their own, it's just we get to see the real them.

[Oren Marciano]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think that's, you know, one of the fun parts that I found, although I, through the nature of my specific work in the hotel as a general manager, I don't interact on a daily basis with our guests. But it's definitely one of the things I found to be most enjoyable, those kind of random interactions I would have with guests and just hearing their experience.

Actually, the other day, I was walking into the restaurant, it might have even been the night that we met in San Antonio a couple weeks ago. And I was walking into the restaurant. And some guests were walking out, they didn't know who I was, I wasn't wearing a uniform or anything.

And they said, Oh, we just want to recommend, you know, the shrimp, the garlic shrimp and the chicken with rice or whatever dishes they had. I said, Oh, great, great to hear, you know, and I was chatting with them a little bit. And eventually, I don't know if I said or they they asked, and I said, Oh, I'm actually the manager.

And then and then we were joking around a little bit about this and everything sucked. You know, that was quite a it's a great feeling to have to see your guests satisfied, right? And then I'm just sharing that with you.

And it is, it is nice to see to see people in such a positive, happy place when they're out here for sure.

[Richard Bexon]

Yeah, definitely. Well, Aaron, my last question for you is I've taken up enough of your time here, but if you inherited $500,000 and had to invest it into a business or real estate in Costa Rica, what would you what would you invest it in?

[Oren Marciano]

I would invest it in Los Altos.

[Richard Bexon]

That's a good thing.

[Oren Marciano]

Would it buy you anything at Los Altos? Well, we're we're actively building out some more rooms to to to offer, you know, we want to build up some new types of rooms and expand, as I said, the demand, I mean, we're counting on a positive future and the demand has been so high that we felt this year, wow, have we more rooms to rent? We would have been able to rent them and people would have enjoyed them.

And so we're actively working on that. And I think if I look at it from a business perspective, I don't see where I can get a better return on my own money than investing in myself.

[Richard Bexon]

That's a that's a great response. That's a great response. Well, Aaron, I really, really appreciate your time.

Anybody that wants to know more about Los Altos or Jungle Vista, I'm going to put all of the the websites and the content basically in the description down below. But Aaron, really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us.

[Oren Marciano]

It was a lot of fun. Thanks for inviting me.

[Richard Bexon]

See you later.

[Oren Marciano]

OK.