Introduction
[Richard Bexon] Record. It’s not live, guys, as I mentioned. I’ll just pause, say good afternoon and we’ll get started. Okay, cool.
[Jonathan Baldock] Sounds good.
[Richard Bexon] Fantastic. And it’s Jonathan and Belinda. I just want to make sure. Belinda, I got right.
[Belinda Baldock] Yes, thank you.
[Richard Bexon] No worries. Good afternoon, Jonathan and Belinda. How you doing?
[Jonathan Baldock] Yeah, we’re awesome, thanks.
[Belinda Baldock] Good, thanks. Good to meet you.
[Richard Bexon] Yeah, you too. It’s an absolute pleasure. Thanks for taking the time to join us here on the podcast and I think very. Something very different than what we’ve done before, which is what I’d love to, you know, do on the podcast. I don’t think there’s, you know, it’s not all about real estate and like, kind of educating people on that. I think it’s about people’s journeys and stories and how they’re helping rise the tide of Costa Rica.
[Belinda Baldock] Yes, absolutely.
[Jonathan Baldock] Yeah, we’re happy to contribute. We can also have a, you know, a point or two about real estate, but certainly not to the degree or level that probably most of your other guests have.
Market Overview: Post-Election Trends
[Richard Bexon] Awesome. Well, I mean, look, you know, post U.S. election, kind of where we’re at at the moment, you know, I think we kind of saw a little bit of a pause before the election. I don’t know what we’re seeing now. There’s going to be another pause or anything, but what are you guys seeing kind of happening from your side?
[Jonathan Baldock] Post election, we have heard from a few developments that they were expecting to see a potential upswing, just people that disagree with the next administration. And so we have heard that that has transpired where some families are just like, hey, you know what? We’ve had enough of this back and forth pendulum swing. And so from, you know, purely from a US Standpoint, we’ve seen a bit of an increase. Not directly yet, but through our contact set at projects we have.
Mirror May: Showcasing Costa Rican Artists
[Richard Bexon] Okay, can you guys explain exactly what it is that you guys do, if you don’t mind me asking?
[Jonathan Baldock] Sure. All right. Yeah. So basically we have a platform which represents the top Costa Rican contemporary artists and Belinda’s background. I’ll let her do that.
[Richard Bexon] Yes.
Art Industry Background
[Belinda Baldock] Yeah. So I’m from the uk. I worked in the London art scene for many years. So I most recently worked for, for one of the world’s largest, most renowned contemporary art galleries. It’s called White Cube, which is awesome. And then when I started spending time here in Costa Rica, I wanted to immerse myself in the artist communities here, which was actually quite a difficult task because there’s not a gallery infrastructure to support artists and A lot of them don’t have websites or they’re not on social media. Like, it was particularly a year to find, like, we’ve got about 40 artists who we work with at the moment, and when we started to chat with them, a lot of them are in San Jose, but they are spread out across Costa Rica as well. We would be invited to their studios and then we would meet with them and we’d learn about their practise and we were. I was particularly blown away with the level of talent in Costa Rica that the. The breadth of work that was coming out of the. Of the artist communities. And yeah, it was just. It was incredible because it made me realise the people coming into the country who are investing property and they want to buy artwork locally for their home, if it was difficult for me who was really researching it, then how are people supposed to find it? So it was just about connecting people who have that appetite for art here in Costa Rica with the artists who are producing very high calibre work.
Technology Platform
[Jonathan Baldock] And then my background is technology, so works out well, so I was responsible for the platform. And that took also about a year. So that worked out timing wise. And we put in a lot of good technology, so we put in things like augmented reality. So you can see any piece in high definition, in the correct dimensions, on any, well, excuse me, any wall, anywhere in the world. So if you want to see what the art looks like in your place, you can see it. And then once you see you like it, you can position it, then you go, great, I want that. And then we have everything integrated, whether it’s, you know, invoicing, shipping, you know, insurance, you name it, we’ve got it. So there was that. And then also we had initially thought maybe we set up an actual physical art gallery. And. And then when we realised we’re in Playa del coco and there’s 600 kilometres, 450 miles worth of shoreline, it’s hard to get people to drive that far to go see a gallery, which is.
[Belinda Baldock] Probably the reason why there isn’t. One of the reasons why there isn’t a gallery infrastructure here in Costa Rica. And part of having a website as well enables us to really project the artists out into the world. So we’re supporting them within Costa Rica, we’re promoting their work to people who are buying these incredible homes and they want to have art on their walls. But also it’s really important to, to show the rest of the world what Costa Rica has to offer in terms of, like, yes, beautiful beaches, rainforests, biodiversity, all of that, we all know that about Costa Rica, but really what people don’t know about Costa Rica is the art scene. And that’s something that I’m very passionate about.
Pop-Up Exhibitions and Development Partnerships
[Jonathan Baldock] Our latest initiative is at about 11 days away. So we’re doing a pop up at the five star Hotel Andaz. And so it’s just beside the Four Seasons on the. Is it peninsula, Papagayo Peninsula. And so with them they’ve given us a studio space. We’re setting up temporary walls, building basically a gallery right in the, in the location and then bringing artists in to do talks and basically engage with the guests. So you know, one piece is, hey, when people come and buy and they stay great. We’re the platform and the place that they can go. When you’re on vacation and you want to get engaged with not just the hotel but a little bit more of what Costa Rica has to offer, we can bring it right to you. So we’re doing that with them for nine days or eight days at. Eight days.
[Belinda Baldock] Eight days.
[Jonathan Baldock] Eight days. Thanks. And, and then the last piece, which is just how we’re trying to drive more visibility is connecting through builders and construction projects, but trying to do it as early as possible. So that way when they start looking at the FF&E packages that might be okay. I’ve got my house, what do I want to put in it? That we have an art package available to them as well at that time so they can personalise their home.
[Belinda Baldock] Yeah. And also a really nice thing about Mirror May is that we have spent a lot of time getting to know all of the artists and we really feel very like, we really feel strongly about their practise and we really want it to be a personalised service as well. So if people know they want to buy some pieces but they’re not really sure where to begin or they’re not really sure what their style is, then that’s also something that we’re very, very happy to provide, you know, a full service.
[Richard Bexon] Good for you guys. I mean it’s like, you know, it’s, I mean we did a house implies that a cork actually went on in 2000 and like we built that in 0607 and we actually found a guy in the airport that was like an artist but like could never make a living. So we were just like, dude, like we got a huge house here. It was like a thousand square metres. Paint all the pictures for the whole, the whole thing like go nuts and we’ll pay you for every single picture. But I mean it’s Kind of one of those things that people think about last. It’s not like one of those things that they have to, you know, think about. And a lot of the time they’re just like, well, I’m gonna. I’ll get that later.
[Jonathan Baldock] Right, yeah. Trying to inject that earlier.
[Richard Bexon] Well, I think it’s important because, again, it goes with the whole, you know, when an interior designer or like there’s an FF and E package, like, it all kind of goes together, if that makes sense or makes sense. But you could sometimes walk into places where you’re like, well, that piece of art doesn’t really work there, if that makes sense, you know, and there’s a lot of that in Costa Rica of like, that, let’s call it like crazy jungle art, you know, and you see that all over the place here, which is. Can be beautiful. It’s a little too crazy for my taste, but like. Yeah, it just doesn’t kind of go with the setting, if that makes sense of, like, the furniture. And there needs to be that cohesion between the two things.
[Belinda Baldock] Yeah, absolutely. I mean. Yeah, because the art scene in Costa Rica is a lot more than your toucans in a tree. And you’re. Yeah. Which, you know, all. All good. But it’s. It’s so much more than that.
[Richard Bexon] Of course.
[Belinda Baldock] Yeah.
Playas del Coco Living
[Richard Bexon] Well, I mean, you guys settled in Plaza Coco. Why did you decide there? I mean, of all the different areas in Costa Rica, why Plaza Coco?
[Jonathan Baldock] Well, I started coming here in 2016 and it actually ended up being cocoa. But we’ve travelled around the country a lot because this is our fourth year, six months of the year. We’ve done a lot of travelling around the country. We really love doing it. And Coco is sort of a great, for us, a great mix of a few things. One, it’s close to the airport, so you can get to it nice and easily. It’s a great balance between expats and locals. So you’ve got a really nice community where you don’t just feel like, hey, are there Costa Ricans in Costa Rica? So it’s not. It’s not that place. And then it’s still a little bit under market. I feel like it’s. It’s got room to grow financially. There’s a lot of stuff happening around it and decent infrastructure. So for all of those reasons, it drove us to this location. Yeah.
Development Concerns
[Richard Bexon] Somebody brought up the Coco Marina the other day and I just, like, laughed because I’ve been hearing that for, you know, 20 years, since I first came here. And I’M like, in Costa Rica, don’t believe anything until it actually happens. Because know, until stuff’s dirt’s moving and stuff, like, don’t believe anything 100%.
[Jonathan Baldock] And even then, even if dirt’s moving, that means it could. It’s getting underway. But how long it takes to complete is another story too.
[Richard Bexon] Just take a look at the Flamingo Marina. Yeah, yeah.
[Jonathan Baldock] Well, that one’s at least done. Correct.
[Richard Bexon] But it took that thing took like 35 years, 40 years to get done, you know, so.
[Jonathan Baldock] Well, we’re already 20 into this one, so we’re hoping, fingers crossed, it’s just another 10 or 15.
[Richard Bexon] Like it was. Someone was also mentioning the airport in the south. And I was like, come on, guys, like, if realtors are peeling off the. You should buy this because of that in the South. Like, you need to buy stuff based on today, not on, like, don’t speculate on the future. Like, are you okay with it today? Does it make sense today? Not with like, what’s going to happen because as we know, nothing happens quickly here.
[Jonathan Baldock] That’s totally true.
Coco’s Community Balance
[Richard Bexon] So. But I like Coco. You know, Coco is like that. It was the Guanacaste beach town that every Costa Rican went to. It was like the of Guanacaste, if that makes sense. Like, everyone would go to Jaco because it was an hour and a half from.
[Belinda Baldock] From.
[Richard Bexon] From San Jose. Everyone would go to Guanacaste, you know, go to plays at a Coco. Being Guanacaste, I got a lot of Chico friends, you know, where their families have, like, you know, homes on the beach there or in Playa Hermosa, and they remember going there and yeah, it’s like, it’s a really great mix between locals and expats. Whereas, like, Tamarindo is like 95 expats and 5%, you know, locals. So. Yeah.
[Jonathan Baldock] Yeah. If you want a taste of Florida, Tamarindo is awesome.
[Richard Bexon] Yep.
[Jonathan Baldock] And I do like Florida, but, you know, I didn’t select Florida, live there. So for me, I like visiting Tamarindo. But we just decided it was. It was a little too. A little too built up.
Investment Considerations in Coco
[Richard Bexon] Yep. Yeah. I mean, I mean, you guys again settled in Coco, you bought a property in Cocoa, right?
[Jonathan Baldock] We have two, so we have a condo and we just finished a house.
[Richard Bexon] Well, good for you guys. I mean, for anyone wanting to invest in property in that area, what do you think they should consider?
[Jonathan Baldock] Well, there’s not a tonne of empty lots left down by the beach, so that land is running slim. There’s some, but I Think it really just depends on what you’re looking for. Where do you want to be? So I think locations first and foremost. If there’s a location that suits your lifestyle and what you want, I think that’s going to be sort of primary. And then the second thing, which I think is really a factor all over Costa Rica, which is, you know, how long is this project going to take? Do you have the right people to work with you on it and make sure that you have all that in place and. Which is difficult. But. And I would certainly recommend that people actually spend some time here to decide this is where they would really like to settle. Because, you know, as much as we love it, it isn’t necessarily for everybody. It can be a bit party when you’re close to the main street. It can be quite quiet when you’re, you know, over near where we are, which is closer to Las Palmas. And so I would just say probably the best thing, but I would recommend this for anywhere is invest some time first rather than a knee jerk reaction of, you know, pulling the trigger on, on a property.
[Richard Bexon] Well, and I mean, cocoa in December is different than it is in April, which is different than it is in July and different than it is in October. Like it changes radically, you know, so you might like, I don’t know, January, February, March, where it’s dry and kind of a little bit more dusty and there’s a lot of tourists there. But like come September there’s maybe not much moving.
[Jonathan Baldock] Right. It’s raining, it’s very, it’s almost all locals. There’s a few retirees that have, you know, that are sticking out through the, the green season. And, and a lot of the bars get, and restaurants get really quiet and some of them close for the, for that, for the green season. So yeah, you know, for us it works out because we get a tail of the green season. We get a, a touch of it at the other end. We get all the dry and, and then we do get the, the highs and lows of the beginning and the end of the, you know, the, the season for how busy it is. But if you want it to be busy, pick a, either a Costa Rican holiday because they all, you know, come and fill the beach and you get a taste of the local flavour that we have. Cool things like the cowboy parade. Oh, yes, yeah, the Tope Tope. Yeah, yeah. And then you get, you know, the Christmas parades and all the, the local stuff, which is amazing and they all put on a great show. So yeah, for us it’s Great.
Supporting Local Artists
[Richard Bexon] You know, there’s the word gentrification being thrown around quite a bit here in Costa Rica, especially, you know, in areas of like nosada, Santa Teresa, tamarindo and stuff. How do you guys make sure that local artists are being supported and not kind of being taken advantage of? Because, you know, there’s always that thing of like, oh, foreigners are coming and kind of taking advantage of, you know, locals, etc. How do you guys make sure that doesn’t happen when it comes to, you know, I mean, I suppose from the artwork perspective.
[Belinda Baldock] Yeah, good question. I think we. I mean, we. We value the prices of the artwork are the prices that the artists sell their stuff for. We’re not, you know, lowering prices. We’re not, you know, the changing or affecting the. The money that they receive. And in some ways, we operate less as a traditional gallery. We don’t have as many overheads, so we actually take less of a commission than most galleries do. So we make sure that a bigger percentage of. Of money goes to the artists, that we try and support them a lot in that way.
[Jonathan Baldock] Yeah. And then I think the other piece is the fact that, you know, a lot of people say, you know, I’m good at my art or I’m good at my craft, but I don’t have the marketing and the business side, like, 100% really focus. I’d really just love to paint, for example. And we’re doing everything we can to put them in a position where. Where they can do just that. Because we do have a lot of, you know, artists that we work with, and they. They do something else as well. They’re either professor in the university or they’re, you know, they’ve got other jobs or other businesses. And so we’re figuring out ways to drive more visibility, more business, more transactions for them so that they can spend more and more of their time doing their art. And we have artists where even stylistically, it’s. Because there’s a huge range of what we represent, some is better suited for our online platform because if people elsewhere in the world find it, it’s more likely that people from somewhere else are going to be interested in that style or genre of art. Whereas, you know, it’s much easier to sell, you know, paintings of beaches by the beach than it is to sell them, you know, in a big city. And the. The opposite is true for. For, you know, other. Other genres of art.
[Belinda Baldock] Yeah. Yeah, that’s a good point.
Art as Cultural Investment
[Richard Bexon] I think it’s great what you guys are doing, which, again, is showcasing Costa can artists that beforehand was very dispersed. You guys have kind of provided a platform, organised it, but are also getting them in like, it’s Costa Rica, it should be all Costa Rican art. Like, we shouldn’t be bringing in, you know, foreign art to Costa Rica. Like, the whole point is that, like, you love Costa Rica, its culture. You’re buying a place here, investing, like, get Costa Rican art in there so that, like, it gives it that feel.
[Belinda Baldock] So also, it’s not about, you know, almost patronising the Costa Rican artists. It’s not, oh, support local and support artists. It’s actually really good art and it can be considered as an investment piece as much as art from any other country. And there are a lot of artists that we’re working with that are breaking into the US market. They’re beginning to show in different galleries in the States, particularly California. Their prices are beginning to go up. Like, it’s, it’s, it’s not just about buying a piece to support that artist who lives in that part of Costa Rica. It’s. You can get a lot from it. It’s. It’s about recognising it and respecting it as a high calibre contemporary art.
[Richard Bexon] Look, I’ve got a. My. One of my favourite artists here is Felix Maria, who does a lot of. I mean, he’s everywhere, you know, but I just, I’m obsessed with fish. Like, I have a, like a contemporary tarpon on my wall over here where I went to a local artist and was like, dude, do me a contemporary top. That’s all I gave him, you know, and, and he did it came back and I absolutely love it. But like, I look back at Felix 10 years ago and how much his work was and then how much it is today and I’m like, wow. And that’s where I love tourism, because tourism just raises the tide of everything, you know, and can just have a huge impact. And, you know, it frustrates me to no end that the government here doesn’t focus more on tourism and understand how important it is. You know, I mean, I’m sure that, you know, they’ve got a lot of stuff to do, but it’s a huge part, directly and in indirectly of its gdp. But I bet you if you sat down with a president, I don’t think he knows that much about it, but like, I could be completely wrong, but like, they’re never talking about it.
[Jonathan Baldock] Yeah, yeah, it’s a different tone. We spent a lot of time in San Jose.
[Richard Bexon] Yep.
[Jonathan Baldock] And there are tourists there, but they’re Mostly flying in and headed out.
[Richard Bexon] Yep.
[Jonathan Baldock] And we do make this suggestion like, hey, why don’t you spend a night and go see some, you know, openings? And we have a newsletter that we send out every week that explains and sort of shows. These are all the, the latest gallery openings. In case you’re, you’re available, you should go. But you’re absolutely right. It is a different tone. It is a little, you know, it’s a. Not a little. It’s a lot more corporate. It’s a lot more like this is business and this is what we’re doing. And quite a bit of it is, is sort of, you know, government business as well. So they, they do get bogged down in that. And I think that translates into, you know, if you’re starting a business here, it does reflect into the complexities of doing that. And we can, we can talk about that.
Business Challenges in Costa Rica
[Richard Bexon] Well, tell me about that.
[Jonathan Baldock] That’s, that’s the shift that we’ve seen.
[Richard Bexon] Tell, Tell me about the complexities because I think a lot of people would love to move here or start a business here. I mean, what should they really understand?
[Jonathan Baldock] Wherever you’re from, odds are it’s about 10 times easier to do business. So for, for us, we were new to it. We know people that have businesses here, but we were opening a business that isn’t currently being done by other people. Meaning, you know, if we were going to be real estate agents, we’d be like, so what exactly do we need to do? And someone can give you a list of everything. And then it would still be a pain and it would, it would suck. But we’re doing some stuff that kind of nobody else is doing.
[Belinda Baldock] We were quite confusing because we were an art gallery. So they, A lot of people could get on board with art gallery. But then when, you know, we’re online and we want to sell, you know, internationally as well, it was very, it was very difficult to explain our business setup.
Language and Banking Challenges
[Jonathan Baldock] Yeah, we on the banking side alone, we’ve had two different banks come and interview us and go out and interview our artists to make sure what we’re talking about is actually true. And so, you know, for sure we’re learning Spanish and we to be. I really suck at it and Belinda’s quite good. Not in comparison to me, but that.
[Belinda Baldock] Doesn’T really say too much. Sorry.
[Jonathan Baldock] But so, you know, we’re very apologetic and we do a lot of Google Translate and periodically we’ll have someone help us out, but more often than not we’re just very apologetic and we try. But the, there are some bits of the language barrier where you’re trying to explain something that isn’t being done currently. And that’s, it’s, it’s not easy to get that across when translate, doesn’t translate it very well because what you’re trying to say when you’re thinking of different ways to say it. But. So banking’s one.
[Belinda Baldock] But the language barrier is a really, is a big thing because there’s one thing being conversationally quite good at Spanish and there’s another thing going to the bank and having technical, high level, technical conversations. You know, that’s a whole other degree of being good at Spanish. So that, that was something that did make it difficult.
Cultural Differences in Art Appreciation
[Jonathan Baldock] Yeah. And then culturally, what we’re doing, for example, most, and a lot of artists have told us most Costa Ricans don’t put art high on their list. You know, if they’ve got a lot of extra cash, a BMW is pretty high on their list. Yeah, but, but a nice piece of art isn’t. So there’s a smaller percentage, for example, like whether you’re, you know, people, you know in North America or you’re from Europe. Art is something that has been sort of shown, discussed, been part of people’s lives and families for, for generations and you generally know somebody within your family that’s connected in some way to some art. And whereas here, if you see listings of, you know, multi million dollar properties in San Jose, there’s a lot of them that have bare walls and nice furniture, but kind of bare walls and it’s a big box. So, you know, there’s going to be a journey for us to try and shift that conversation. So that’s something where, when you look at a kind of business that you’re heading into, where are the gaps? Right? And who is it you’re selling to and what are you trying to sell? For us, it was a lot of discovery and we’re making, you know, tonnes of progress. We’re excited about it, we’re doing lots of cool things. You know, maybe it’s because we’re opening up a space that nobody’s in, but also, you know, even finding people that are receptive. You know, for example, for us, talking to a builder that offers an FF&E package, they’re much more receptive to have an art conversation. If it’s a building that sells an empty box with a key in it, then they’re less interested in having an art conversation because they’ve never thought of it and it’s not part of their, you know, Their, their work. So I would say, you know, something else is just do the research to really know who is it you’re going to be selling to, how big is that audience, how competitive is it? And then whatever you think how difficult it is to do that where you are, then make it a lot more difficult. Not because you shouldn’t be able to put in the work and get success. I think it’s a bit of a, you know, maybe it’s the price you need to pay, which is you’re living in a paradise. Why shouldn’t it be a little more challenging?
Natural Filtering Effect
[Richard Bexon] I call it a natural filter.
[Jonathan Baldock] Fair enough.
[Richard Bexon] Because again, if you don’t really want to do it here, like, if you’re not really into it 100% and dedicated to it, it doesn’t matter on what front, it filters you out really quick.
[Belinda Baldock] You’re so right, you know, so that’s.
[Richard Bexon] Why I say the beauty of Costa Rica is a lot of it’s all organic. And I mean, everything is like nothing is ever really planned and everything is a little bit more organic. So, you know, kind of what filters through and actually gets done sometimes, you know, is people that really want to get stuff done.
[Jonathan Baldock] That’s totally true. And that’s a great example for what we see with the real estate market here.
[Richard Bexon] Yep.
[Jonathan Baldock] The most successful real estate agents, you could be like, oh, but they’ve been here a long time when it was easy. Yeah, I suspect that it was never easy. And it’s just they, you know, there were a lot of real estate agents throughout that whole time. And it’s this, you know, cream rises to the crop. Right. The most successful people, whether they were here or whether they were, you know, doing real estate in the US they were going to be successful in the US or they’re going to be successful here. And, and then there’s new people coming in and a lot of people just sort of saying they do things, but they’re not really doing it.
[Richard Bexon] Yeah.
[Jonathan Baldock] So that, that natural filter is a, a great way of looking at it because you really do have to dedicate yourself to it. Unless you’ve got. Actually, even that may not be true unless you’ve got so much money where you can just buy.
[Richard Bexon] But sometimes it doesn’t, it doesn’t apply.
[Jonathan Baldock] But, but I will say then you are, you know, you’re crossing your fingers that whoever’s running it for you is going to do the job right. And if you’re not paying attention to it, it could slide off a cliff really fast.
Investment Recommendation
[Richard Bexon] Well, awesome, guys. It’s been great. But my last question for you, if you inherited $500,000 and you had to invest in a business or real estate in Costa Rica, what would you guys invest it in and why?
[Jonathan Baldock] Well, we’ve done both. So, you know, we have a house, similar kind of dollar value, and then we have opened up a business. So personally, I think for our, for us, because of just who we are and how we want to spend our time, the business would have been the like, if I had an either or, I would do the business. We want to do that hard work. We want to get ingrained in the culture, in the community. And this is a really great way to learn your way. Whereas if you have a house, yes, it can earn you passive income and it can be turnkey and you can hire somebody to rent it out for you, and that’s great. But then in many ways, I think you’ll always feel quite like a tourist. Yeah. And whereas a business, I think, forces you, providing you’re willing to put in the work, it forces you to, like, really get an understanding of the people, the culture, other businesses, who you’re going to engage with and, and what’s happening in the market. And, you know, this kind of podcast is a great way, you know, for us to further understand other pieces. Right. Because when we listen to your conversations, it’s a great way for us to. To pick up on. On topics that we’re less familiar with. And, and by the way, there are so many topics we’re less familiar with. So, you know, we need, we need all the help we can get.
[Belinda Baldock] Yeah. Good answer.
Conclusion
[Richard Bexon] Awesome. Well, guys, I very much appreciate you taking the time to join us here on the podcast. Anyone that wants to basically look at some of your artwork, all of the contact details are down in the description down below, but very much appreciate you taking the time to join us.
[Jonathan Baldock] Amazing. Thanks, Richard.
[Belinda Baldock] Thanks for having us, Richard.
[Richard Bexon] No worries. See you later.
[Belinda Baldock] See you. Bye.
