[Richard Bexon]
Good morning, Esteban.
How are you doing?
[Esteban Ossenbach]
Hey, Rich. Morning. Thanks for having me.
[Richard Bexon]
Not at all, man. I appreciate you making the time out of what I know is a busy week and a busy day for you. I mean, it sounds like you’ve got quite a few projects, hours included on the go.
So yeah, I gave you a bit of an intro here beforehand so that everyone knows that you’re working on our Aronau Ridge development, which a lot of people listening to this actually will probably end up investing in that project anyway, Esteban, so you’re aware.
[Esteban Ossenbach]
Okay. Thank you. Very nice to be sharing well with you in this space and I’m very, very glad to have a chat with you, which I always enjoy.
[Richard Bexon]
Awesome, dude. Awesome. Well, Esteban, we’re seeing a lot of volatility in Western markets recently, but I suppose worldwide, which I think is probably here to stay.
I’ve said it before, and I don’t see that changing anytime this year. But I mean, what are you seeing happening here in Costa Rica and specifically how has this impacted your workload? We’re just trying to get an idea of what you’re seeing happening and are things slowing down?
Are they getting faster for you? What are you seeing?
[Esteban Ossenbach]
Sure, man. Yeah. I was thinking about this when we were discussing before.
There were definitely different areas and moments where the market has slowed down a little bit, but as we discussed, there was a moment in time before COVID, there was COVID and then now we’re in post-COVID area. There was definitely a boom with COVID and that was off the charts, like something never seen before. And now, of course, some people perceive it like it’s slowed down a little bit, but we definitely have still a very solid and growing market.
And yeah, we’re experiencing a slight different, let’s say, phenomenon worldwide, but we’re still having a lot of people looking for healthier lifestyles, more relaxed, more secure, more connected to the nature kind of lifestyle. And Costa Rica has been one of those places that has really been in the focus of people looking forward to doing this kind of change in their lifestyle. So it has slowed down a little bit, as I said, but it’s not something that you would say it would completely stop or it’s still growing compared to COVID.
I mean, slightly, slightly below, but before that, it’s still so much above what we had before COVID.
[Richard Bexon]
Yeah. Yeah. I agree.
I agree. What do people need to know about architects in Costa Rica, Esteban? I mean, there’s a lot of assumptions that people have, and I’m sure that we’ll get to some of those assumptions later, but what do you think people should know about architects in Costa Rica?
[Esteban Ossenbach]
Okay. Yes, for sure. As I always say, we architects, of course, we’re great designers in one hand.
We have to be great problem solvers, but we are also big therapists here in our practices. And that’s like overall the world in Costa Rica, especially what maybe differentiates a little bit what we do and what we are and what comes with our culture is that we really want to preserve nature. We really are keen on doing projects that merge with the environment and that create as positive footprint as possible.
So we are very chill, nice people, but also very focused on that, on preservation, on the values that we were raised on. So that’s something important for sure to know.
[Richard Bexon]
I mean, I think one of the assumptions that people have is that architects in Costa Rica are going to be cheaper than they are in their home countries in Europe and North America. And I don’t think that’s the case, Esteban. I mean, why is that?
I mean, because people are coming to, again, not a first world country, but paying first world prices, if that makes sense. But maybe you could just explain how fees and architecture kind of work here.
[Esteban Ossenbach]
Well, yeah, man. I mean, I’m not 100% aware of how much it costs in every country. There has to be always, I say, there’s a balance to the operations that you have to understand and know before going into business.
And it’s different in every country. I can say, because I did a little bit of research back in the day, that our country pays a lot of taxes. We pay a lot of taxes just to operate, like 36% more or less of earnings we make go to taxes.
So that’s already a big chunk. I know in the States it’s around 15%, something like that. So it’d be just double as that just for taxes.
Also, in Costa Rica, of course, if you’re going to build like in the city or something like that, you have all the, you know, like the land is pretty even. There’s a lot of regulations that you just easily follow and build. But here in Costa Rica, most of our projects are, you know, outside of the city.
They’re not connected to any kind of, sometimes you don’t have like sewage systems. So you have to do very specific treatment systems and so on. So every project here becomes so unique and has so many variables different to other projects.
So you have to kind of really give a deep, like make a deep analysis of everything that’s happening, topography, water situation, you know, the design itself, the views. How do you get there? You know, sometimes we have to travel far away.
We have to go through very bad roads to get to our sites. So there’s so many things that are different here than in the first world countries. And on the other hand, when you really compare like what we do, you know, in our professions and the quality of what you get here in Costa Rica, I would say it’s, you know, it’s, I think it’s better.
[Richard Bexon]
Honestly, I do think it’s better in some extremes.
[Esteban Ossenbach]
Yeah. So I would say in that regard, you know, we might be similar if you really, I mean, I would, I would have to see a quote from somebody from the States to understand it a hundred percent, but I know we have quality and we have some very big challenges that we overcome every time.
[Richard Bexon]
Yeah. Well, I mean, I would just say this, it’s like, look, you’re, you’re paying for design and artist, if that makes sense. If you just want a cookie cutter, like there are cheaper people out there, but also is that like architects are regulated by the college of engineers and architects here as well on what they have to charge.
So it’s kind of, if I like to say a little bit of a, I’ll use the word mafia because it’s kind of like the college of medicals, like there is a way, a standard set procedure to charge it, if that makes sense per square meter. So you could kind of play around, but there’s not much movement. If that makes sense, like a design that’s going to be 30 grand, someone’s not going to come and say, I’m going to do it for 10.
[Esteban Ossenbach]
Exactly. I mean, somebody could, but that’ll be not good.
[Richard Bexon]
Well, you’re going against the college of engineers and architects to begin with. And then also secondly of what are you getting for 10 grand? Because I know architects that would probably do it and it’s more boxes, if that makes sense, rather than an actual design.
So, you know, I I’m happy to pay for design because I’m paying for artwork, if that makes sense.
[Esteban Ossenbach]
Yes. In a certain way. Yes.
And another way also you’re paying for expertise. You know, there’s guys that would charge the lowest amount because they don’t have really the experience. So that also reflects on the end product and, you know, you always get what you pay for.
[Richard Bexon]
Yeah. Yeah. I agree.
I agree. I mean, when someone’s looking for a good architect here in Costa Rica, Esteban, what would be like, if you were looking for one with all the knowledge you have, what are some of the questions that you would be asking and what are some of the kind of the red flags?
[Esteban Ossenbach]
Well, for me, this is a very interesting question. You know, I’m always on the other side, but definitely, you know, I would say you need somebody that really listens actively to your needs and your desires, but that also has, then, you know, the capacity to tell, you know, when something is not right.
[Richard Bexon]
And, you know, you did that to me a couple of times.
[Esteban Ossenbach]
Yeah. You know, sometimes it’s complicated, but, you know, you need people that really have the complicated conversations with you and they won’t be just smiling at you and saying yes to everything because it is always, it’s like a dance with the client and the architect. It has to be, there has to be compliance.
There has to be, you know, a desire both to do things well, but there also has to be a way of, yeah, talking the tough parts and solving that out and still having a great project, everybody happy. So that’s a complicated dance sometimes. But so that’s nowadays, every time more and more important, not only in architecture, but in the world, you know, it’s the soft skills because nowadays, of course, technical skills are super important, but you need people to really manage teams and that makes that in such a way that everybody feels comfortable so that at the end, you end up having not only a nice product, but a nice process that has less stress involved. And that’s also very important.
[Richard Bexon]
I mean, what questions would you be asking? Like, what questions would you be asking just to make sure? Like, I mean, you’d probably want to see their previous work, right?
[Esteban Ossenbach]
Of course. That’s always important. You know, you can’t, I mean, you can, of course, give somebody an opportunity some time to time, but you need to see, you know, what their qualities, how they have experienced before, how many projects they’ve built.
And, you know, it’s not sometimes how many, but what’s the quality of them. And always talk to previous clients if you can, because that’s the best insight you can get from somebody is if there was somebody working with them for a year, two years, that usually that’s how much it takes for a project to be completed when you start from design and then you end up having to build that’s two years of relationship. You know, if somebody definitely gets to know you in that period of time.
So previous clients always have a big saying on new clients, you know, so it’s important to be like that. Also, you know, you always want to be good to your current clients because those are the ones that are going to be pushing you towards your next clients. So that’s how it works in my opinion.
[Richard Bexon]
Okay. I mean, what are the red flags? If you were talking to an architect, what would be some of the red flags that would go up?
Like, I mean, I had a conversation with an architect this morning where he was telling me I could build, you know, from anywhere from 800 to a thousand dollars a square meter. I already know that’s a red flag, dude, because I’m like, you know, way too low, right? You know, I mean, maybe it can be done with a prefab house, but like for a decent construction, difficult, no?
[Esteban Ossenbach]
Super difficult, really. I mean, those are the things, Rich, you have a little bit more experience than the usual clients. So it’s very different depending on who you are and what the amount of experience you have is.
So if you’re a new client, like you have zero experience, that’s one scenario, you know.
[Richard Bexon]
I’m the other extreme. I’m the worst case. I know a little bit and that makes me dangerous.
[Esteban Ossenbach]
You know a lot, really, but actually, so I personally enjoy a lot working with people that have a lot of experience. I don’t have to explain as much, but when I have clients that have less experience, you also want somebody that is willing to teach you and show you and be super transparent in how things are done. So if you have zero experience, you want to definitely connect with somebody that is willing to give you all that layer after layer of knowledge so you understand what’s beneath one decision.
If you encounter somebody that just deviates conversations and it’s not very accurate and doesn’t have like good data supporting what they’re telling you, that’s definitely a red flag. People that always say yes to everything, as I already said before, there has to be people that tell you, no, you can’t do this, no, you can’t do that, and this is why you can’t. So for me, those are the things to look at.
And of course, if you have zero experience, you need to interview more than one. You need to do a little bit of an assessment. Okay, this guy told me this, this guy told me that.
What’s a bit different between these conversations that I had? Why is this number so low with these other guys that are closer here? These strategies, I use them also for other kinds of hirings, not only architects, but I’ll do the same with builders when we want to build.
You have to compare sometimes. But yeah, this is sometimes the only way.
[Richard Bexon]
I mean, designing a property in Costa Rica is pretty unique just because of everything here, weather, sun, wildlife, everything. What things should people take into consideration, or what are some of the elements that they should consider when building here in Costa Rica, or designing, say?
[Esteban Ossenbach]
Yeah, so of course, first thing I would say is climate. You already mentioned that, and what comes with climate, what kind of conditions we have. Very tropical weather over all the country, so we usually work a lot with cross ventilation, big overhangs.
The orientation of the house is always very important. We always have a little bit of, let’s say, a conflict in the orientation. Sometimes people want to place it looking towards the view.
Sometimes you have the sunset right in the view, so there’s these conflictive things that sometimes you have to work through in order to make the house more adapted to the climate. But overall, that, and then the topography, that’s a big one, I would say. Sometimes it gets overlooked.
We are very used to working in complex topographies here in Costa Rica. I would say 90% of my projects are on steep slopes and complicated topographies. Those increase sometimes a bit the value, unless you are very smart about the usage of the footprint.
But yeah, a lot of what we experienced on this project that we just had in La Fortuna was that we did a lot of approaches to understand what was really more cost effective and understanding the land very well. That was very important to nail down budget, design, and positioning of this element.
[Richard Bexon]
Yeah, it’s amazing how people underestimate how much money goes into infrastructure. Yeah. I mean, foundations, walkways, entryways, you know, water tank systems, septic tank systems, they just kind of see the square meterage of the house and go, okay, but there’s so much more that goes into it.
[Esteban Ossenbach]
Yeah, 100%. I mean, you just said water treatment systems. Those are big, you know, especially if you go on a steep slope, you definitely have to go for an upgraded system that has pumps.
And of course, the water that comes out is super clean. So environmentally, it’s actually better, but definitely increases the cost of building here.
[Richard Bexon]
Yeah, definitely. Wow. I think we just lost him there for two seconds.
[Esteban Ossenbach]
Where were we?
[Richard Bexon]
What? I mean, you’d mentioned there, you know, about getting a good cost and really, you know, we’d mentioned infrastructure and septic tank systems as water there. When people need to value engineer a project, I mean, what’s some of the stuff that they can really think about?
[Esteban Ossenbach]
That’s a big one, for sure. Well, it all starts from the beginning, right, in my opinion. Of course, you can value engineer at the end some things, but, for example, going back a little bit also to the project that we just did, we approached this project in different ways.
You know, we have the same amount of square meters. How do you place them on the site? Just to bring back a little bit of that knowledge that we created there.
We had, let’s say, I’m just going to put the three top ones. We said, okay, we can either do one horizontal house all together. We can do three different volumes connected with a roofed hallway, or we can do a tower where we have the three elements stacked one on top of the other.
And, yeah, of course, at the end, because we have a steep slope, we were like, okay, where are we having the most, let’s say, waste? And it was definitely on the footings and on the roof, on the amount of roof that we had. So, by stacking them all together in one small tower, we were compressing the footprint, doing less footings and less roof area, and that way we created already a big saving with those square meters.
After that, what we decided was, okay, let’s have a structural meeting. So, we are going to have a decision on which systems we’re going to use, which is very important. Are we going to go full concrete?
Are we going to do a mix, concrete and steel? What’s better? And at the end, we decided here to be more cost effective, a mix between metal and concrete, where concrete was just going to use in retaining walls, floors, slabs, of course, but the rest was going to be metal, lightweight structure, which is going to allow a faster, cleaner build.
And there we have another big, important decision we made towards cost effectiveness. And then when you, you should talk about volume engineering at the end, you know, you don’t want to be cutting these things at the end. You know, if you really want to do volume engineering at the end, you’ll be mostly on the finishes side and cutting back some small things.
But if you’re really on this kind of process, you don’t want to be cutting back on structure when you already have plans, because that always delays you and creates more costs on design and whatever you’re spending on if you have a loan or whatever. So, at the end, if you have a volume engineering at the end, it’s basically finishes, like, what can you do with that? So, if you want to import finishes, which is super usual here, you can, and probably the costs are not going to be like the best, but you can also maybe look for things that are in Costa Rica, close to you that are, I don’t know, maybe in a good price and a good discount, or you manage to source it locally and get something similar for a good price.
Also, trying to not overdo finishes. Sometimes I think the simpler, the better. You know, going simple is always better.
It also looks more timeless if you try and push very extravagant finishes to something, they’re going to be outdated super quick. And, you know, at the end, nobody wants that. So, yeah, those be like the main things.
Electromechanically, sometimes you can cut back on some of the equipments, but I would not do that because if you want to invest in something, you want to have good mechanical equipments to support the house. That’s, you know, the organs of the project. So, those things usually I would try and leave alone.
Of course, you can always price things, but yeah, I would always try and go for good quality there.
[Richard Bexon]
Well, Esteban, we’ve kept you long enough. So, my last question for you, if you inherited $500,000 and you had to invest it in a business or real estate in Costa Rica, what would you invest it in and why? And your answer cannot be give it to me.
[Esteban Ossenbach]
Yeah, well, look, definitely I would do it an investment real estate because of what I do. For me, it’s very natural. I don’t know if it’s for everybody, but I know my business and I understand the the possibilities there is to invest here and to make your money grow.
You know, if you invest in real estate, you can do it for several reasons. You can do it for, you know, I want to really do my dream house, which is very valid. I just want to buy a piece of land and leave it there for a couple of years and then sell it.
And it will increase in value if you invest in a good area. Or you want to buy a good piece of land, develop it and then sell it. That’s also very good and actually creates a lot of value to the land.
So, all this are feasible here. And, you know, with $500,000, I think you can buy, let’s say, 2,500 square meter lot and maybe build one rental or two rental studio apartments. And this will create a big value over time.
They will increase in value. And, you know, if you see the latest data on Costa Rica occupancy, like in good areas, you get up to 60% occupancy during the year. So those numbers make it super easy for me to be like, definitely, I would buy a piece of land and build something small or invest with somebody like you.
Sorry, but I really like your business development program. Like, it’s very interesting to me. And, yeah, I think that’s the best way.
[Richard Bexon]
Where would you do those studios, Esteban?
[Esteban Ossenbach]
Well, I personally live in Osorio.
[Richard Bexon]
Yeah.
[Esteban Ossenbach]
I actually already bought a small piece of land that I want to develop here close by. I’m looking towards doing four small studios, walking distance to the beach, very nice gardens, easy and soft architecture, something that really blends with nature, that doesn’t require an extensive amount of money, but that has all the amenities. And, yeah, but definitely, you know, there are plenty of areas like this.
You know, we have Nosara, we have Santa Teresa, we have La Fortuna, we have Peninsula de Osa. Like, there’s so many areas that are hot spots right now, which is my list. So, yeah.
[Richard Bexon]
Awesome. Awesome. Well, Esteban, it’s been an absolute pleasure having you here on the podcast and sharing your knowledge.
Anyone that wants to contact Esteban or look at some of his work, I’ll put all the contact details down in the description, but very much appreciate your time, sir.
[Esteban Ossenbach]
Oh, I appreciate you. It’s always a pleasure talking to you, Rich. You know, I’m here to share any kind of knowledge you want to take from me.
I’ll be more than happy to give back, okay?
[Richard Bexon]
Appreciate it. Have a great day.
[Esteban Ossenbach]
Pura Vida. Have a good one, guys.